I am tired of being berated for not being biblical-confessional-orthodox and treated like a leper who is contaminating a “pure” church

Totally on Topic:

I was born and raised (baptized/confirmed LCMS) in the Mo. Synod. Confirmed in 1974. But then the troubles began – Pres. Tietjen fired at St. Louis, walk out of faculty, etc.

Believe me, as a teenager my interests were in a dramatically different direction to say the least. But I overheard the conversations, felt the pain as families left. Could not understand or begin to comprehend how the “Church of Christ” could have such stark disagreements which would bring families to leave.

I can totally relate to this junior high student – in many ways it mirrors myself.

My home church voted to leave the LCMS and join the AELC. We lost about a third of our congregational membership. It was bruising and raw politics – some of my earliest childhood friends I never saw after that split.

It has torn our family apart for years. My uncle who is an LCMS pastor will still not welcome myself or my family to the table for Holy Communion. My home church never recovered from the split, it carried on for about 30 years, joined the ELCA, but closed for good awhile back.

I see so many parallels (not so much theologically but how the split is taking place) between the LCMS and the ELCA that it is frightening. I see no “winners” or “losers” here, just a whole lot of messy and IMHO unnecessary pain.

But I will joyfully sing the Christmas Carols this year. Let us all make way for the Christ child into our hearts over and over throughout the years.

Hmm. A piece of carrot cake sounds good right now.

So, differences have been around a long time. I’m an old guy and have watched & wrestled with challenging matters in the church-some, in my view pretty silly or minor, but for others major stuff…..Faced with some of the same “stuff” a missionary once said, “I would be a great missionary, if it wasn’t for these people!”

Also recall how Jesus had just stated the call of the Kingdom…about first and last…when James and John came to Jesus begging to be First–one on his right and one on his left. (Mark 10:28 ff)

Jesus established his church. I’m sure he was well aware that it would not be a piece of cake!

I am a pastor of a congregation where everyone is not in agreement. We chose to focus on what does bring us together though and moved forward. We recognized that this is the beginning of more talks and also recognize the need for this, but also recognize that there are bigger things out there than sexuality.

We did lose some people who felt this issue was a stumbling block to their faith with the ELCA, but as a leader, it is my job to help them find a church where they would be more comfortable, so I did. All three families are at other churches and that is all I can ask for because we are about making disciples for Jesus not members of the ELCA.

Back to the point though. I feel for this boy because it is the church that is making a bigger deal that what was actually present at CWA. Resolution 4 is the key. If your church doesn’t want to do blessings, don’t. If your church doesn’t want to call an openly gay pastor, don’t. There are churches that do and are willing. Why are we trying to prevent those churches that want to do this from doing so?

The only issue is if we choose to focus on sexuality rather than the cross of Christ. My church chose the cross and we are moving forward. We lost some families, but we gained 5 more.

This year, we are focused on the malaria initiative and the Book of Faith initiative (again). We are focused on a new mission trip. We are focused on giving coats to the homeless. We are focused on feeding those in our community without food.

We will talk about sexuality again and where we as a congregation stand on all the issues, but the issue doesn’t define us. I feel for this boy and pray that he can sing Christmas songs and see that the church can indeed help bring peace to the world.

Good questions. Thank you. My point about the youth was not that all ELCA youth are leaving for non-denoms. Some are leaving and going there, some nowhere. Some are leaving to other churches. But they are leaving because they are not finding what they need in our churches. The reasons may be varied. Perhaps it could be a lack of emphasis on what we believe? Entertaining youth instead of mission ? lack of bible studies? We throw a good youth convo, but most of our churches nickel and dime youth, hiring a part timer person and expecting them to work 60 hours a week. Or they expect entertainment as a main focus, rather than deepening their faith in daily life.

However, at the same time, my point was non-denoms have huge youth groups, and their youth definitely don’t favor what I heard the youth at CWA state, so all I am saying is not all youth do believe what you stated. And, most non-denoms have a strong emphasis on studying the bible, not just quoting it, but knowing it.

As for your links to social statements, yes I was aware of them. I have read them all. However, social statements are non-binding, and these statements on violence and genetics have not been elevated to the level of binding policy. Nor have they been used as some sort of litmus test. Yes, we adopted a human sexuality statement in MN, but that was not the main issue , as you know. It was the policies on ordination.

Let me share with you what I agree with and what i disagree with, since you asked. I agree, as do 99.9% of the people I know who opposed the changes, that gay people are children of God, and all are welcome in our churches and at the table. I even believe they can and should have civil unions in society, this would be part of Luther’s kingdom of the world. I am not a hatemonger, nor a bigot, and resent the implication by many in ELCA leadership that if you oppose these policies you are.

However, what I disagree with is a political process that produced at least four studies I remember done at a cost of millions of dollars for each study, that in the end in 2007 said that 60% of laity opposed changes. Then, despite that, the leadership forged ahead. The Council mandated a simple majority vote instead of realizing that 2/3rd is the process for calling a pastor, and it should have been the standard here.

Basically, I think in one fell swoop, by a simple majority vote 600 people ignored 2000 years of church history and confessions, and not only changed the ordination standards, but basically the marriage standards found in Genesis and Matthew. We have joined only the UCC and Anglican church in this, while 99.99% of the Christian church worldwide is opposed.

What would i have preferred? A long, good debate on why gay marriage is biblical. A long, good debate, about first changing the nature of marriage in the Lutheran church . To be fair, I wouldn’t be happy if that had passed as well, but at least it would have been honest, rather than changing the ordination standards and in effect changing the nature of marriage. If there is biblical or confessional reasons for marital changes, then let’s hear them.

Last, I will say this. Ordination is not a right, it is a a privilege and honor bestowed on those who not only feel called, but also adhere to the churches standards. One of the female pastors I know has stated clearly that women’s ordination has led to this , (even though she opposes the recent decisions), because women’s ordination was never really argued from scripture (as it is in the Pentecostal or other churches) , but on the basis of civil rights. I am all for civil rights. I marched with Dr. King. But rights are not equated with ordination.

Finally, bound conscience is a farce. Typical passive aggressive behavior. Either say yes, change it, and stand your ground, or say no and do the same. BC is simply fence-sitting, and those opposed to changes will gradually hear their voices diminished. The battle is over, and indeed, as some in MN stated, in defeat, clairty.

Hope that helps. I think what we are going to find is that for twenty years, since the ELCA was formed, we have fought over this. Most are tired of fighting. Perhaps an amicable divorce is the best way, and the leadership will see that like a real divorce, what starts out amicable can get tough.

I pray not. I thank you for dialogue, and hope that answers your questions. I won’t debate the CWA anymore it has been pointed out we all need to move on.

Jim

I am not talking about all youth. I am speaking about our ELCA youth who spoke with conviction at CWA. The hippies I know are still more liberal than most, including me. How can you say on one hand that we are losing youth in droves in to non-denominationals, but they also favor cohabitation?

Youth are as varied as adults. Our youth, however, seem to be saying something that we are called to listen to.

Also, we do have many social statements, we don’t make one about everything, but we do make stands on issues. Including the two that you mentioned, here is where we stand:

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Messages/Community-Violence.aspx

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements-in-Process/Genetics/Human-Cloning.aspx

People who are against the statements are good people who are conflicted. People who are for the statements are good people who have lived in conflict. We have got to speak to one another from a place of respect and understanding. Instead of ignorance and judgment – that includes individuals on both sides.

Which parts of the statement on sexuality are you opposed to? Which of the resolutions do you struggle with? Jim, I am asking because this is where the conversation begins.

Thank you.

The ELCA has been in a steady decline since its inception, and this is the response to membership loss and stagnation? Yeah let’s compete with the Episcopalians and the UCC – that’s a real winning strategy for growth. Evangelism has just become much more difficult for us thanks to the CWA.

It seems like it is a matter of what Truth we know and believe; no one seems to be willing to move on their understanding. This issue and vote is far more complex than saying we should not have voted because “well over half the laity” did not like it. I guess this just shows that for some people, this religion is more of a social club than a means of worship and love of others.

What was so fascinating during the study (about 20 parishoners participated), was the true change of heart. At the end of several intense months of discussion/scripture/guest speakers, the most adamant conservative elderly man on our panel said, “You will be surprised at my conclusion.”

This guy was a retired military, uber conservative man in his 80s. He said, “What would Jesus do?” Jesus would accept all.

At CWA we heard from the President of Lutheran Youth. She was an incredibly articulate and passionate young woman. The news that she shared was that the youth were overwhelmingly in favor of being open and accepting of all people as well as ordination of people who feel called, regardless of sexual orientation. The young people involved in the Lutheran Church are trying to lead. When will we, adults, shut up and follow? Jesus was younger than most of us, would we have listened to His radical message at that time either?

Thank you for speaking up. Age grows wisdom, but not always consideration, and sadly not respect. Your power is in your own leadership. Be who you are and treat others the way that you wish the adults would learn to treat one another.

And Jim,

The grassroots of this movement may not have grown in your back yard, but please accept that they did grow in many places. And though some congregations are struggling, some of us are not. We are proud of our church and our denomination. And we are proud to stand together in the name of Christ to worship the God of love. We love through the hurt. I wish the same for your congregation and others who are hurting.

We had one person who felt convicted to sit on one side of the issue or the other and one feeling the opposite (neither being a pastor). We sat in an open discussion with the congregation, in the church that we both love, with the church family that we both love. We didn’t all agree, but we did realize that we were called to greater things than to fight with one another.